Beginners Electromagnetism Class

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Re: Beginners Electromagnetism Class

Postby natecull » Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:53 pm

Since our goal here is to produce an understanding of the science of Dr. Brown, may I suggest that you place gravity on the TTB triangle along with magnetism and electricity at the other apexes. In this way, we may also be able do see how each is a cause and effect on the others.


The thing about including gravity is that in all of mainstream science as we know it, the important thing to know about gravity is that it *doesn't* include neatly into electromagnetism, and you won't find that GEM triangle in a textbook, because the forces that we do know do NOT have a neat three-way symmetry (because gravity doesn't quantize, for example). By all the standards of mainstream science, that TTB triangle is simply wrong.

I'd like TTB to be right and for all of mainstream physics to be so radically wrong, and I'm open to the possibility, but because it's such a huge and contested claim, we can't simply claim that he was correct without showing the world some numbers. If you just have an intuitive feeling that gravity MUST go together with electromagnetism - well, so did Einstein, and he spent forty years trying to prove it, and failed. So it's a Very Hard Problem indeed.

If we're trying to describe the current state of *mainstream* science in this thread, it would be better to stick to what the best current theories (namely, General Relativity and Quantum Electrodynamics) say about gravity and electromagnetism, and then if we think we understand how TTB was different, to show where we think he diverged from both of those.

As a brief overview, here's what I understand as the current state of physics:

* Newtonian Mechanics (Classical Mechanics), including Newtonian Gravity, describes how forces (acceleration times mass) affect solid objects. Objects have mass, mass has inertia (resistance to acceleration) and all motion in a straight line is relative (you can't tell how fast you're moving, only the difference between speeds), and you simply add speeds together. (Actually 'velocity' rather than 'speed' since velocity is a vector, an arrow pointing in a direction.)

* Newtonian Gravity is the only force in Newtonian it deals with that works over a distance. It's considered accurate at low speeds and low gravity fields. It's not accurate at describing the planet Mercury which is very fast and close to the Sun, nor is it accurate enough for the Global Positioning System satellites (though some people dispute this) or for the motion of stars and galaxies.

* Classical Electrodynamics (Maxwell's Equations) came around in the mid 1800s, it's a very simple set of equations describing how electricity and magnetism affect each other and create light and radio waves (electromagnetic radiation). It's what most people think about when they think 'electromagnetism'. It's generally good enough for electrical and radio work at room sizes down to some transistors, but not at all when you get down to inside a silicon chip and modern cellphone radios.

The tricky thing about Classical Electrodynamics and Classical Mechanics is that they don't work well together. In Newton, speeds are relative - but in Maxwell, speeds are absolute. This started to break down when Michelson and Morley didn't find evidence of the 'ether' (the mysterious invisible substance which light and radio wave were assumed to travel through, which had to be both lighter than the lightest gas and harder than steel). There's controversy over what Michelson and Morley actually found, but the mainstream consensus is that they found something shocking: that the round-trip speed of light in every direction is the same and is not affected by Earth's speed in space. If it were a wave like sound, we'd expect light to be compressed in one direction and stretched in another, like the Doppler Effect, but it isn't. This is very weird.

* Special Relativity was introduced by Einstein in 1905 to tie Newton and Maxwell together. To keep Newton's idea of relative speeds and make Maxwell's equations also relative, he did nasty things to space and time, so that time would literally stretch and space shrink as objects travelled at the relative speed of light. This solved the equations and made electromagnetism more closely tied together, but was very controversial at the time. Now it's considered such settled science that if you question Einstein, eyes instantly roll and you are ejected from the party as a crank. But, well, it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but the maths works, so okay. SR introduces the very annoying rule (if you want to travel in space) that nothing can ever go faster than the speed of light. So it would take a couple of years minimum to get to the nearest star and thousands to millions of years to get anywhere interesting, and it would still take more energy than the Sun to do it. So SR is one reason why many scientists don't believe in UFOs - 'how could they get here? Einstein says they can't.'

* General Relativity was introduced by Einstein in 1915 to add gravity back into his new stretchy-space-time universe of Special Relativity, because Newtonian Gravity didn't fit any longer. It took him ten years but he made it work by redefining gravity from a 'force' to 'curvature of space-time'. The maths of this is very subtle and clever. Space and time stretch like silly putty, gravity can slow time, energy and speed can cause gravity. The trick is to find ways that space and time can distort which are plausible (caused by the kind of matter and energy that we know of). These are called 'exact solutions' and they are still kind of rare, and most seem to need something like the power of a star to do anything interesting. GR predicts light bending around stars, the orbit of Mercury, and clocks slowing in orbit of the GPS satellites. Townsend Brown seemed to sponsor research in the 1950s which put General Relativity back on the scientific table.

* Unified Field Theory was an extension of General Relativity to include electromagnetism, which Einstein and many others worked on from 1915 to the 1950s. Many approaches were tried, none of them ever apparently quite worked. This quest spun off into many different directions since then - mainly String Theory and Quantum Gravity, both of which are really families of theories, have really really really hard maths, and haven't produced anything practical yet. Except String Theory people hate Quantum Gravity people, and vice versa. It got to the name-calling and hair-pulling stage this decade with respected physicists publishing books like 'Not Even Wrong' saying that String Theory is all a bunch of baloney.

* Quantum Mechanics came about in the 1920s-30s because of what strange things radioactive atoms, as well as light, were doing. The equations only made sense when you threw out the idea of light and electrons moving smoothly and made them change state abruptly in little chunks called 'quanta'. This made the maths of atoms very very complicated but it was enough for people to build atom bombs with slide rules in the 1940s.

* Quantum Electrodynamics was the part of Quantum Mechanics which revised Einstein's Special Relativity's revision of Classical Electrodynamics (whew!) It's pretty darn complicated, and there's no way to fit gravity into it because it's incompatible with General Relativity. But it's very well tested and is used in making silicon chips, and is tested every day in particle accelerators, so it's very unlikely that it's wrong as far as it goes. But Einstein never liked it and thought it was just an approximation to a better theory which he never found.

* Electroweak Theory and Quantum Chromodynamics describe all the new particles which particle accelerators found since the 1950s (the weak nuclear force and the strong nuclear force). I don't know much about these except that the weak force was obviously involved in nuclear fission so it must have been understood in some form in the 1940s, but presumably not as part of QED.

Right! So... when you want to talk about Electromagnetism.... and Gravity... which theory?


It's probably simpler to talk about the Maxwell Equations - which is fine - but remember that, in some modern applications like silicon chips, they are actually very very wrong.

If you're doing things which don't involve particles or galaxies, GR and QED are 'good enough' approximations, but are still far too difficult for scientists to use in daily life, so they use approximations, which they know to be wrong but hope are wrong in the right ways to get 'good enough' answers fast. Most of physics now seems to be about learning how to pick the right approximation in the right situation because you'll never be able to get enough computer time to run the actual 'correct' numbers.

And even GR and QED are known to be almost certainly wrong because they don't work together, but the various replacement String Theory or Quantum Gravity theories haven't proved themselves yet.

The two things that are giving astronomers pause at the moment are breakdowns of GR: 'dark matter' (galaxies apparently orbit closer than GR predicts from the number of visible stars) and 'dark energy' (the universe is apparently expanding faster than GR predicts, so there may be an 'antigravitational force'). Then there's the 'Pioneer Anomaly', where the Pioneer space probe is apparently slowing down at the wrong rate. Lots of people claim their pet theory solves these problems, but they can't all be right. And GR doesn't really affect us much here on Earth, except for the GPS satellites.

On the small scale, there are lots of people playing with quantum computers, quantum dots, quantum teleportation, so QED is getting a hammering, and the Large Hadron Collider will get right into the other forces.

The claim that you can build a device in a garage which violates GR or QED would be simply unbelievable to most physicists, because both are so apparently well-tested. But if we think we've got one and can prove it - that would be interesting.

So - are we trying to reconstruct a whole new physics of 'electrogravity' on top of... what? Maxwell? Newton? Maxwell with Special Relativity? SR+GR? Or the nasty quantum stuff?
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Re: Beginners Electromagnetism Class

Postby Linda Brown » Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:14 pm

I know that I am jumping ahead here a little but I just want to point out one thing.... even if we don't understand exactly the meaning of it right now. Dad was very specific in saying that the Biefeld-Brown Effect demonstrated a DEPARTURE from Coulombs Law. Now in quickly reading over the material on electromagnetism I ran head on into the Coulomb Law .... or rules..... which I already know that Dads principle broke..... and still nobody can really explain what is going on?

This is just a classic example that there is more happening here than is understood in the classic physics books. So as we are reading about all of these " Laws and rules" just keep in mind that there is every chance that we are painting ourselves into a corner. Leave a path for your mind to walk in another direction if it learns that it has to.

I think that breaking it down to Electricity and Magnetism is very important.

So along those lines Karen, can we ask the group? Do people actually completely understand what electricity actually is? What is actually at work here or have we just learned how to use it ?

{ I remember that my mother told stories about how some of the farms in the Ohio countryside burned tot he ground because after being wired for electricity because some of the farmers jammed corn cobs in the sockets to keep the electricity from leaking out!)

I understand it a little better perhaps and am fascinated by the fact that our bodies too are electrical in nature......

Can someone come up with a universal and very easy to understand definition of what Electricity actually is? Later then? Linda
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Re: Beginners Electromagnetism Class

Postby natecull » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:36 pm

Linda Brown wrote:I know that I am jumping ahead here a little but I just want to point out one thing.... even if we don't understand exactly the meaning of it right now. Dad was very specific in saying that the Biefeld-Brown Effect demonstrated a DEPARTURE from Coulombs Law. Now in quickly reading over the material on electromagnetism I ran head on into the Coulomb Law .... or rules..... which I already know that Dads principle broke..... and still nobody can really explain what is going on?


Well, looking at the Wikipedia article there's this caveat:

In either formulation, Coulomb’s law is fully accurate only when the objects are stationary, and remains approximately correct only for slow movement. These conditions are collectively known as the electrostatic approximation. When movement takes place, magnetic fields are produced which alter the force on the two objects. The magnetic interaction between moving charges may be thought of as a manifestation of the force from the electrostatic field but with Einstein’s theory of relativity taken into consideration.


So the so-called Coloumb's 'law' in the Maxwell equations is only a pre-1905 approximation. All 'laws' are approximations really. This is why I asked 'do you want to talk about Maxwell, or Maxwell + Special Relativity, or QED?'

Because one of several things may be the case with the Biefeld-Brown Effect:

1. The BBE satisfies the ordinary pre-Einstein Maxwell Equations (Townsend said it didn't)
2. The BBE violates Coloumb's Law but satisfies the Special Relativistic Maxwell equations (ie, it involves moving electrostatic charges which induce magnetic fields. Not sure that a 'gravitor' would qualify for this exception, but anything involving charged fluid flow - air or water - might. But we don't have many actual devices to investigate.)
3. The BBE violates SR Maxwell but satisfies some exotic edge case of General Relativity (as for instance, Bokyo Ivanov thinks - http://www.ssrsi.org/Onsite/PDFbin/Stro ... fields.pdf )
4. The BBE violates SR Maxwell but satisfies some exotic case of Quantum Electrodynamics (not sure who if anyone claims this, but there probably are some. Tom Bearden, perhaps, or anyone who talks about the 'zero-point field' which is a QED concept.)
5. The BBE violates SR Maxwell, GR, QED, but satisfies a somewhat mainstream alternative theory - such as String Theory, Heim Theory or Quantum Gravity (I don't think any string theorists would agree at all; the Heim people might)
6. The BBE violates SR Maxwell, GR, QED, all mainstream alternative theories, but satisfies a fringe alternative unified theory which has been roundly rejected by mainstream journals (lots of people claim this, usually without experimental support)
7. The BBE doesn't actually exist but is something else (ion momentum transfer, for instance) which has been mistakenly thought to be more than it really is.

And there may be other options I don't know of.

'We don't currently have a built device in the public domain which unequivocally demonstrates the BBE' really is the big sticking point here.

If the Lifter IS the BBE, then the scientific consensus seems to be that 'the BBE is (7)'. If the Lifter is NOT the BBE... then we're still looking for a good example. I believe the scientific consensus is also that the Ionic Breeze is either (7) or (2) but not really useful since it can't be scaled up, but there's the question that 'did Sharper Image build it correctly, since they didn't solve the ozone problem'?

Other devices that other members of this forum claim to have built in the past (Mark Moody and Mikado, for instance) MAY qualify - but I don't see posted photos, specs, videos, voltmeter readings, experimental writeups etc for qualified scientists to examine and say yes, this is really happening, you didn't make any lab mistakes, and it's none of the above.

Until we reach a point where we're willing to share hard data with the qualified science community, what can we do? We shouldn't expect to achieve any kind of recognition or build any kind of theory until then because we haven't done the first step, data gathering.

I'm neither a qualified scientist or even an electrical engineer, I'd burn my thumbs with a soldering iron, but I do know some people who've believed in this kind of fringe phenomena for years who might be willing to attempt to build and verify a device, as long as the voltage range is in the low thousands and doesn't produce ionising radiation (which require very expensive safety precautions). If anyone is willing to give me blueprints, I'm happy to try to make contact. But if not...


I think that breaking it down to Electricity and Magnetism is very important. ... Can someone come up with a universal and very easy to understand definition of what Electricity actually is?


Universal, easy to understand and also precisely *correct* (in accordance with all known observations)? No. What the scientific community can verify that electricity does on the scale of atoms is is not at all easy to understand. If anyone can simplify the maths of QED, they get an instant Nobel Prize.

Or you could go here for videos of Feynman lecturing on QED for free: http://www.vega.org.uk/video/subseries/8

Easy to understand and very roughly approximate, but not guaranteed to be actually correct?

Here I'm still struggling. The standard high school explanation is that electric charge is collections of electrons, and electric current is flow of electrons, an electrical circuit is like a garden hose, electricity 'flows' in a circuit like water and a battery is like a pump. That's enough to do basic electrical wiring without radio. But it's pretty much wrong for anything deeper, because electrons don't actually move in a wire, and what gives an electron its charge?

Maxwell with SR says that a moving electric field is also a magnetic field at right-angles, and vice versa, and that if both are moving then that's the same as light/radio waves. The three are so deeply intertwined that you can't separate them.

Generally at a rough level I think one could think of either electricity or magnetism as waves or flows of some kind of fluid, but again a warning that that's NOT what either SR or QED says, and there is as yet not much agreement between the various 'ether' theories I've looked at on the Internet, so it will probably lead you astray very quickly.
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Re: Beginners Electromagnetism Class

Postby htmagic » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:17 am

Genesis 1:3-5 wrote:And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

And then God made the sun and the stars on the 4th Day. So what is this light he made the first day? Is it a different light? Apparently so. Maybe it is electromagnetic energy? I don't know. But is is different enough from the light in the sky we call the sun and stars that he separated them by 3 days...

Leedskalnin said we were wrong with the concept of the electron. He talked about counter rotating vortexes. I think one was an electron and the complement an anti-electron or a positron. Now a positron and an electron would annihilate each other if they collided but they are moving charges. He claimed he knew how the Egyptians moved the blocks for their pyramids and his blocks for his Coral Castle weighed twice as much. Obviously he had a handle on gravity.

The early experimenters studied static electricity. Piggott used static generators. Even though the charges were moving, they were still DC. Thomas Townsend Brown used high voltages, mainly DC. Coloumb's Law deals with static, not moving charges.

Then there are the electric fields around a charged particle. When the charged particle moves, there is also a magnetic field around it that complicates things even more.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Coulomb+Law
Image
Illustration of the electric field surrounding a positive (red) and a negative (green) charge.

Now for electromagnetism, the Biot-Savart law and the Lorentz force are fundamental to electromagnetism just as Coulomb's law is fundamental to electrostatics.
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Biot-Savart+Law

Now I do not know if the Biefeld-Brown effect deviates from the Biot-Savart law and the Lorentz force and if so, by how much. And I don't know if anyone has calculated it. But it obviously had Teller stumped and he probably dealt with these equations in the past. Any doctorate in physics will be exposed to this an even higher level math and calculus.

So defining the basics is good. That's where Tesla, Brown, and others started.
Where they went with it is another story...
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Re: Beginners Electromagnetism Class

Postby pladuim » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:24 am

Here my basic explanation of electricity.

In a battery, electricity is the transfer of negative electrons to positive atoms/matter. If I am right all atoms want to become neutral, neither positive or negative. So in some fashion, these atoms have had -e stripped from them causing them to become positive. So sitting in your battery, atoms are sitting in a positive state on the positive side of the battery. Negative electrons on the negative side. So actually the -e are being sucked/pulled (only way I can describe it) from the -e side of the battery to the +atoms.

Same thing in lightning. Positive atoms(I am guessing here) are produced in the sky. They build up to the point that the insulation of air can't hold it back and BAMB a sudden release of -e being sucked/pulled up into the sky to the positive atoms. The earth is full of -e which is why we use ground rods. And if I am right on this some atoms/elements have -e that can be given up freely and still remain neutral.

If I am wrong, please correct me.
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Re: Beginners Electromagnetism Class

Postby pladuim » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:51 am

Guess I am right and wrong. Read more here.

http://amasci.com/miscon/eleca.html#frkel
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Re: Beginners Electromagnetism Class

Postby Linda Brown » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:31 am

WONDERFUL DISCUSSION. Now lets go back over what actually has been said here and look at things more carefully.

One thing I need to post ( and I hope that I do it right this time because my message has disappeared out from underneath me three times already..... so I try again .....

Magic Bill.... its called " Qualight"

And Nate.... you have given us months of work actually .... but let me just address one comment where you said that a working model of the BB effect ( not ion momentum transfer like the lifters) had not been built.
Until we reach a point where we're willing to share hard data with the qualified science community, what can we do? We shouldn't expect to achieve any kind of recognition or build any kind of theory until then because we haven't done the first step, data gathering.

Oh but the data has been gathered.......

and it was tested.... and witnessed.... and all of that is recorded officially. The comment after the test was that"It is apparent the the systematic variations occur in the ourput of the apparatus which are not to be accounted for and not localized within the system itself. Though the phenomenon is not understood at the present time, it is quite certain however, that the above named variations are caused by forces external to the system."
Dad had come to the conclusion that there was a " radiation other than light)which prevailed in the Universe, independent of our solar system....

And according to these particular records the visitor to the lab in Zanesville Ohio concluded that what he had seen " Is novel and valuable, leading to probable identification and measurement of forces hitherto not recognized in physical science or astronomy."

He signed the affidavit then..... Paul Alfred Biefeld.
The date was August 1930

Yet all of that has been forgotten. Linda
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Re: Beginners Electromagnetism Class

Postby KarenAnn23 » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:32 am

WOW, 1st off I want to say thank you to each and everyone of you, I'd like to reply to each. But, that I think may be a waste of time better spent by me...

You most likely know that you have saved me hours of research...I can now fill in 3 pages of my notebook by the comment made last night, and everyone kept it low key yeah. I had many of those term ready to reaseach this morning. ;)

Now, I agree we must come to terms with what it is exactly we want to do with this thread...Since there is so much in just that one word..I must consider everything said 1st. Don't let that stop you fro moving forward if you wish. I see this somewhat like this statement taken from Plad's link

Today when unwary teachers try to understand "electricity", they encounter this morass of contradictions. Often they throw up their hands in frustration and say: "Electricity is just a kind of event."


This is also wrong.


Pretending that electricity is an event doesn't solve the problem, instead it makes it worse. Teachers are attempting to add yet another definition to the growing list!


The truth is that the word "Electricity" has many contradictory meanings and so the word has become meaningless. Electricity is not an event. Neither is it energy, or electrons, or electron motion. Electricity is just a big mistake, but a mistake that slowly crept up on everyone. We never realized it was happening. As long as we keep trying to figure out what "electricity" really is, we will keep spreading the confusion. The only honest move is to stop hiding the problem. Stop the coverup. We should perform an act of painful honesty, and admit that we've been accidentally misleading generation after generation of students by teaching them about the wonderful substance/occurrence/energy called "electricity" which doesn't really exist. " end quote.

Therefore, I personally am going back to the beginning and find what I can about Telsa and Maxwell's equations. To see what I gleen from that. Hut Master still has the right jist of putting them all together at least in my mind. If it all gets to confussing, we can break off and start a thread on gravity alone...I feel that , this is a vital part of the puzzle.

what puzzle you ask??? I'm working on it LOL

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Re: Beginners Electromagnetism Class

Postby KarenAnn23 » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:39 am

Linda,

I see you have been posting at the same time...lets not forget about that.

As for Nate , thank you and I agree with Linda as you see above.

I didn't think I started this as to oppose ideals theorie or ect. but, it now seems to me that Pee Tee had it right it's going to get a lot harder for me..If we do oppose some of the set ideals, then eventually we should prove it..but for me that's a long way off.

I will be back again later in the day

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Re: Beginners Electromagnetism Class

Postby Linda Brown » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:49 am

Karen! What you are finding is priceless! And I know that this might seem hard to understand but though we try to call your class an "Introduction" to .... whatever we are talking about.... It is probably one of the most advanced classes being held anywhere in the world right now. Why? ..... because we are looking at something that most "experts" don't even see yet. And we are looking at it in a bold new way which is going to render results... And you and I Karen... even though I am with you in trying to understand even the most basic concepts ....We are in the middle of a very exciting time in history!

it is our input, our qquestions that will help keep people from hiding behind the words that you pointed out are relatively meaningless. They all do it without realizing it and its only by getting back to the bare bones basics that we are coming to understand that we don't ( including the experts) actually comprehend much of this at all and its time to start fresh!
Great discussions! Nate.... thank you .... and Magic Bill.... pointing out that there was " Light " before the sun was created... in the Biblical sense.... just made me smile. There all the time and people don't actually SEE what it said. Plad... I will catch up with what you have said, I promise. And Hut Master... as always...... Linda
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