Who was Richard (Walter) Miethe?

[Mikado14]

In the book "Defying Gravity", a person named Richard (Walter) Miethe was captured by the Russian forces and was imprisoned along with a German officer named Von Luck. In Chapter 52, the author does a credible job of investigating the Nazi UFO myth but doesn't go far enough. Perhaps it is because what was written was a "first draft" version with the proper due-diligence being left for the "final draft".

There was an interveiw given by Miethe to french Journalist Jacques Alain in 1952. In that interview, Miethe claimed that he escaped the advancing Russian army and eventually made it to Cairo Egypt.(This is important and will be addressed in a subsequent post)

Miethe

There is an interview with a "Dr Richard Miethe", 'German aeronautical engineer' and 'ex-Colonel', in France-Soir for 7 June 1952. I only have a transcript, in French, but apparently the paper also published a photo of Dr Miethe in his swimming trunks.

My French isn't great, but it seems that in the interview with Dr Miethe, conducted in Tel Aviv in June 1952, he says that he is 40 years old, gives specific details of his military background, and claims that he built a flying-saucer - the V7 which he built in 1944, the motors of which the Russians found at Breslau. He claims that from April 1943 he commanded a group of technicians of the 10th Reich Army, at Essen, Stettin and Dortmund, where the main research into German secret weapons was conducted. He doesn't name any of the other six engineers he says were involved, but says clearly that three are dead, and three are believed to have been taken by the Russians.

Not unusually, the heart of the interview is his comments on some recent Brazilian flying saucer reports, and his opinion that if flying saucers are seen, then they will have been Russian-built from the knowledge of his three captured colleagues. But perhaps the most important point of all is that this Miethe seems to have had nothing to do with the USA, Operation Paperclip, or anything similar. The article says, I think, that a few days before the German surrender he left the front to join the Arab Legion based in Addis Ababa and Cairo, where a number of Hitler's senior officers had regrouped. At the time of the interview, in Tel Aviv, it seems that he had been ejected from Egypt, where he says he had been working with others to reconstruct the engine with which his earlier flying disc had been powered. The trigger for the expulsion may have been a breakdown in diplomatic relations between Germany and Egypt.

As ever, we have no idea how the saucer flew or functioned, but more than two years later, in September 1952, the Italian magazine published some fuzzy, unconvincing photos of something looking not unlike a curling stone, on an angle against a featureless background (those featureless backgrounds are everywhere in 50s ufology). These, 'Tempo' claims, were taken over the Baltic on April 17, 1944, when the Miethe saucer was test-flown. The article persisted with the assertion that the Russians had obtained the secrets of these miraculous flying discs.

Thre is another site (http://www.german-discs.net/builders/miethe.php) that the author has done a bit of investigation and research into Miethe and the photos of the V-7. Further, Miethe claimed that the engine used to power the craft was a BMW 109-028 which was developed from the BMW 109-018 turbofan. There is a problem with that, the BMW 109-028 is a turboshaft engine. The difference is, the turbofan exhausts air as thrust and the turboshaft has a shaft output such as used in a helicopter. This is a distinct difference between the two especially since Miethe claimed that the V-7 was capable of supersonic speeds.

More to come later.

Mikado

PS: It should be noted that Miethe has also been reported as Heinrich Richard Miethe. One can only wonder as to where the "Walter" came from which further could lead one to believe if there is more than one individual. However, the stories in regard to "both" men are the same and for exigencies sake we will assume them to be one in the same until more evidence materializes.

[Mikado14]

Miethe has been linked with Belluzzo and Schriever in so much as Nazi UFO's or flying discs. It has also been noted that in "Defying Gravity" that Miethe was captured in the waning days of the war by Russian forces and interred in a labor camp of sorts.

According to "Panzer Commander", Von Luck's memoirs, he surrendered to Russian forces in April of '45 at the Battle of Halbe located in the district of Brandenburg and near to Berlin. The exact of date of surrender is not relevant at this time. Von Luck, according to his memoirs, was was interred in a Gulag in Soviet Georgia for several years before being repatriated to Germany.

It is in Chapter 61 - "Will you please come with us?" that we are introduced to Von Luck in the flesh and is addressed by Robert Sarbacher by saying - "Thank You Sir" for he had helped to keep this frail German physicist alive for you see, this physicist had suffered from lung problems and was reported as being well versed in high voltage.

This frail prisoner was Richard Miethe, according to what is in Chapter 61 of "Defying Gravity".

[Mikado14]

A bit of a discussion on Hans Von Luck is necessary at this point.

In January of 1945, Hans Von Luck was moved to the Oder front and he played a major role in the Reitwein Spur. This area is on the eastern front between Germany and Poland.

The Battle of Berlin started on April 16, 1945 when the Russians breached the German lines at Oder. Since Von Luck was moved to the Oder front in January, we now know where his location was until his eventual capture by the Russian Army. The Oder front was the eastern front for the Germans facing the advancing Russian army. The actual Battle of Berlin commenced on April 20 and lasted until May 2nd.

On the evening of April 25th, Von Luck disobeyed orders and allowed his men to individually attempt to breakout from the Halbe. Von Luck was taken prisoner on April 27th in the area around Baruth which is in the state of Brandenburg on the eastern front.

All of this is important for it establishes exactly where Von Luck was in the waning days of the war. We know he was on the eastern front from January until his capture. We also know that he was on the Oder front facing the advancing Russian forces. We also know that he never was involved in the Elbe breakout.

The Battle of Halbe - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Halbe
The Battle of Berlin - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Berlin
Hans Von Luck - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_von_Luck

[Mikado14]

I do know that Dad never got any practice jumping at all except for one training jump from a tower somewhere in Canada on the way.

Mr. Twigsnapper did say that he was "afforded" one practice jump somewhere in Canada.... what was it? I wonder....Oh... we are going to be here half an hour...and oh by the way.... you will get one chance in learning how to parachutte here.... afte thatr we drop you off in the middle of the night.... at 600 feet..... over battle torn Germany.

From the same post we have:

<snip> I may have told you all last summer ( or was it the summer before?) that I "happened" to run into a lady ( a tad older than I) who was born in Germany. I was spending time swimming in the local community pool and we would swim our laps slowly and visit. She told me many stories of what it was like on the farm where she lived.Just south of Berlin... that the tanks from all the forces involved... German, American, Russian...had at various times churned through their pastures. She brought me a map to show me... it was an older map and already had been written on some and I noted the name of a town ( starting with an M.... it escapes me now) but was the name that Twigsnapper had tossed off in my direction and then not repeated... as if... he shouldn't have said it in the first place. I am sure that map found its way to me for a reason... it just hasn't unfolded yet.

and then:

Can you tell me how out of the way the area near Nordhassen (sp?) would have been for this plane? (speaking of NA337)

The above is all very interesting information. We see that Dr. Brown was afforded a practice jump somewhere in Canada as reported by twigsnapper. That being the case then Dr. Brown would have travelled not directly to England but via Canada. This of course would have extended his trip.

Secondly, we have the reported name of a town that began with the letter "M". We also have a reference to Nordhausen. In any case, the only town of any appreciable size and of interest that is south of Berlin would have been Magdeburg which is southwest of Berlin. In the case of Nordhausen, it is still further southwest of Madgeburg.

Now, knowing the location of Hans Von Luck, which was east of Berlin at the Oder front and with the information that we have, some supplied by twigsnapper, then there is no way that Von Luck, or his men under him, would have been in the vicinity of the aforementioned towns. Von Luck was trapped in the front and looking for a way to breakout and in the end, was captured on April 27th by the Russians. Even if Dr. Brown parachuted into Magdeburg or Nordhausen seven days after leaving California then that would have been the 20th of April. Von Luck was no where near any of those places as reported in Chapter 61 of "Defying Gravity". Also, in that very same Chapter:

As O’Riley recounted, “The ‘brass’ on the other end boomed ‘I AM CHIEF JUDGE
ADVOCATE under the direct orders of Field Marshal Schoerner!’ I think at that point
that the Sergeant realized that he was in BIG trouble. ‘My orders were word of
mouth....directly from my commander…’ he tried to explain.”

This is very interesting. Schoerner at that very time in April, was at the Oder front, the same as Von Luck. If the "Chief Judge Advocate" received his orders from Schoerner then he was a VERY long way from his commander.

This information will be relied upon heavily for another oddity in "Defying Gravity".

Mikado

[Mikado14]

Now having at least established the whereabouts of Hans Von Luck we can continue with Miethe.

A book was published by Tim Matthews - "UFO Revelations" and within that book, aviation and photographic specialist Bill Rose, provided a photograph of a young Werner Von Braun with Richard Miethe in the year 1933. This period of time is well documented and no where can any reference be made to either Von Braun or Miethe knowing each other let alone Miethe working in any rocket program in Nazi Germany. In fact, it almost appears that Miethe is so elusive a character that he may not even exist at all.

Some reports mention that he escaped to the west to meet Allied forces and came to the US under "Operation Paperclip" and worked at White Sands with Von Braun:

In 'Projekt UFO', Harbinson asserts that, of the 'rocket scientists' involved in flying disc development

"at the close of the war, Walter Miethe went to the US with Wernher von Braun, Dornberger, and hundreds of other members of the Peenemunde rocket programme . . . Miethe, though initially working under Wernher von Braun for the United States' first rocket centre in the White Sands Prov-ing Ground, New Mexico, joined the A.V. Roe (AVRO-Canada) aircraft company in Malton, Ontario, re-portedly to continue work on disc-shaped aircraft, or flying saucers just as Habermohl was thought to be doing with the Russians." [76]

These assertions, presumably based on Lusar's, seem to have led to the development of an impressive, but entirely false, history for the elusive Miethe, covering many years. I think we can now dispose of them. . . .

Further, within Wikipedia, there is mention that Miethe escaped via France:

A non-rotating disk developed at Breslau by V-2 rocket engineer Richard Miethe, which was captured by the Soviets, while Miethe fled to the US via France, and ended up working for Avro.

In this particular link, the veracity of Miethe existence is discussed as well as the interview from France-Soir:

Richard Miethe was said to be lead designer of the engines for a German turbojet-powered flying saucer. Skeptics says he did not exist, there being no confirmation of his existence aside from with Lusar's book and a 1952 interview in France-Soir .

At this point, it is becoming more clear that the existence of Miethe is probably real. However, there are various different stories as to who, what, where he was and did. At the very same link referenced above, is the translation of the France-Soir article along with the French for those that wish to translate on their own:

France-Soir, Saturday June 7, 1952
German Engineer Richard Miethe Affirms to France-Soir: "If flying saucers exist, it is the V7 which I built in 1944, the engines of which the Russians seized at Breslau "

TEL-AVIV, June (special to "France-Soir") A group of German experts on "V-weapons", who were working for the Egyptian government in the manufacture of radio-controlled missiles, were very recently expelled by the authorities of Cairo. These specialists of the Physikalische Arbeitsgemeinschaft (PAG), headed by Dr. Kurt Fuellner and Mr. Herman Plitzken, had refused to deliver, after the completion of their work, their secret plans to Egypt.

After several unfruitful attempts, the authorities confiscated all the goods and the personal effects of the German scientists and refused to pay them the arrears of their wages as long as they refused to deliver the documents.

A short time thereafter, the police made it known to some of the Germans that they had no legal right to be in Egypt, Germany not yet having diplomatic relations. The team leaders returned at once to Hamburg, where they charged a lawyer with raising a protest at the United Nations against Egypt for "swindle and ill treatment".

A chemist of the organization, Doctor Erich Stoetzer, and a secretary, Miss Helga Wiegels, were arrested, shackled by the hands, led through Cairo, and threatened with a camel-whip. Miss Wiegels was maltreated and beaten by Egyptian soldiers, who tried to force her to reveal the whereabouts of the plans. Doctor Stoetzer and Miss Wiegels were finally expelled last month, after having spent nine days in prison.

Some of these experts, who collaborated to one degree or another in the manufacture of these rockets, fled to Tel-Aviv. One of them is Doctor Richard Miethe, 40 years old, ex-colonel and scientist for the Third Reich, and aeronautical engineer. A few days before the German surrender, Doctor Miethe managed to escape the front by aircraft. He joined the Arab Legion in Addis-Ababa and Cairo, where many Nazi senior officers are currently residing (including many under Allied death sentences).

Doctor Miethe claims to have worked, from April 1943, as the head of a group of technicians of the Tenth Reich Army, in Essen, Stettin and Dortmund, where the principal research for German secret weapons was carried out. The first V-1 and V-2's were delivered from these factories.

For seven years, Dr. Miethe has sought to reconstruct the plans of an exceptional machine which he built with six other engineers (of which three have died and the other three are being held by the Russians beyond the Urals). In his opinion, it is this apparatus which the press persists in calling "flying saucers":

The engines of the weapons which I designed in Germany, in collaboration with other engineers, were taken by the Soviet troops from the underground arsenals at Breslau.
One of the engines was intended for a supersonic helicopter. The appearance of this apparatus, at a distance of several thousand meters, could, without magnifying glasses, more or less to resemble the saucer of a set of table ware. In fact, a helicopter is very different, in its structure as well as its form.

To describe it in common terms, this apparatus has the exact shape of an Olympic discus, an immense metal disc of circular form, with a diameter is approximately forty-two meters. More than twenty months of experiments, continually revised designs, and extremely complicated studies of gyroscopy and innumerable tests, which resulted in the death of 18 pilots, were necessary to build these machines.

The problem was that of finding the ideal aerodynamic form that could break the sound barrier, and easily transport bombs to ranges of over 20,000 km, guided by radio and radar, and driven by means of a compressed gas based on helium. 22 cubic meters this gas were enough to maintain an average of sixteen hours of flight.

The principle of propulsion was, roughly speaking, that of the jet, but instead of two, or four, or eight turbines, the apparatus uses twelve of them, laid out at equal distances inside a moving metal ring, turning around the central mass. There are neither visible flames nor smoke, because the gases coming from combustion are recovered by an extremely clever compression system, discovered in 1938 by a British engineer.

The first conclusive flights were accomplished above the Baltic, three days exactly after the beginning of the offensive by von Runstedt in the Belgian Ardennes, and with greatest success. But it was only when Patton's army succeeded in crossing the Rhine that Hitler, warned by Marshal Keitel of the long range of this apparatus, which we had by then named the V-7, decided to undertake mass production in the underground factories of the south of Germany.

A copy of the plans was in the personal files of Keitel at Bad-Gandersheim, in the Harz Mountains, close to Hanover. At the time of their advance into this area, the Americans were advised of the existence of these military secrets and tore apart the castle from cellar to roof. They at least could have recovered their expenses, but did not discover, in the walled cellars, tens of thousands of boxes of silk stockings.

The Russians were luckier, getting their hands on the engines, and capturing three of my colleagues. I therefore assert, that if flying saucers are in the skies, they were built in Germany, as developed under my orders, and probably reproduced by Germans in chains in Soviet captivity.

In support of the claim of Egypt working on some form of "rocket defense" we have the following:

This account has been belittled on the Internet for technical inaccuracies in general by those that never read the whole thing. But consider:
There was a German project in Egypt, just as described in the article. Consider the following chronology from the article "Ballistic missile development in Egypt" by Joseph S. Bermudez, Jr, in Jane's Intelligence Review, October 1992, pages 452-458:
1951: As part of the program to modernize Egypt's military in the wake of defeat in the 1947-49 war with Israel, Egyptian Premier Mustafa Nahas initiates a program to build military rockets in Egypt. Egypt contracts German armaments expert Dr. Wilhelm Voss to oversee the program and hires a firm owned by Herr Fuellner that employs several German rocket experts. The experts begin developing a small rocket, probably solid fueled, with a range of several kilometers.
March 1952: Having achieved some progress in the design of a tactical rocket, Egypt begins considering production of a longer-range guided missile. However … difficulty in acquiring high-quality steel, propellants and fuses, cause the delay of the guided rocket program and the eventual cancellation of the tactical rocket program. Tests of the rocket developed for Egypt by Herr Fuellner's firm are unsatisfactory, and Egypt proposes that the firm be put under government control. Herr Fuellner refuses and is forced to leave the country along with some of the German experts.

July 1952: General Muhammad Naguib seizes power from King Farouk

Late 1952: Naguib appoints Wilhem Voss as director of the Central Planning Board and chief advisor to the Ministry of War. Voss hires Dr. Rolf Engel as the senior German expert … and he becomes a dominant force. Wolfgang Pilz and Paul Goercke, a German electronics expert, also join ….

This backs up the Miethe article as regards dates and corroborates Fuellner as the director of the project, and Fuellner's falling out with the Egyptians.

What we are finding out is that Walter (Richard) Meithe has almost achieved that status of legend. Did he really exist? Was the article in France Soir faked? It is possible but then perhaps another view could be that Miethe was an individual who embellished his own work history. There are very few sources that are original and what is found is a loop whereas one link cites another link which then that link cites another and a daisy chain is created that ends up back to the original source. Reminds me of Paul LaViolette referencing his first book as a source for his claims in his second book.

More to come.

Mikado

[Mikado14]

Time to recap what has been presented in this thread so far.

1. In Chapter 52 of "Defying Gravity", the writer does a credible job of building a story in an attempt to show that the Nazi's had been doing research into what has been referred to as "saucer" technology. This technology wasn't so much utilizing work of Dr. Brown for the method of propulsion appears from what has been published to be anything from ducted fans, to rockets and then to turboshafted helicopters and finally to turbofans. None of those methods are remotely or even close to being considered any work of Dr. Brown. However, if one wishes to delve into the mythos surrounding the Nazi saucers, they will find one source (at least that is what I found) where there is an "Electro-Gravitic" component in the design but this is associated with Miethe at Avro.

2. In 1952, Miethe gave an interview to Jacques Alain for France Soir. This is the only known interview available on the Internet associated with Miethe. Research has shown that this interview appears to be the seed from which a good deal of further claims of Miethe's whereabouts and work.

3. From the interview, it has been established that Miethe escaped Nazi Germany in the final days of the war and made his way to Cairo, Egypt. And then after a falling out with the Egyptian Government he made his way to Tel Aviv.

4. No where in the interview does Miethe mention being captured by the Russians and serving in a Gulag or a work camp or even as a prisoner.

5. Miethe claims to have worked with Von Braun and others in the Rocketry program in Germany, which is very highly documented, and yet no record of him working anywhere can be found. There is a reputed picture taken of him with Von Braun but this photo is in the possession of an older German gentleman and was reported by Bill Rose. So far, this photo has not been made public on the Internet.

6. Miethe, in his interview, never mentions "Operation Paperclip" which occurred after the war. In fact, his interview paints a different picture of his whereabouts. However, his participation in that operation is referred in many different sources and refers to his working with Von Bruan at White Sands and then heading north to Canada and working with Wilbert Smith and then AVRO. Conflicting stories abound to say the least but no mention of him being a prisoner.

7. There is this patent - German Patent # 2,147,668 - that references Miethe and Schriever as the patent holders. However, if on where to research this, at least from what I have done, every post you find is identical with no new information. It is almost as if circular logic is at play where one site copies from the next and so on and if there is a photo of him, it is always the same one.

This list could go on but some of the above information is not in the book "Defying Gravity" but is referenced to establish a background as to Miethe, his whereabouts and even his work. The question that needs to be answered is - "Did Miethe get captured and end up in a Gulag/workcamp/prisoner camp with the Russians where he was helped by Hans Von Luck as was written about in "Defying Gravity"? The consensus with available information is a resounding NO.

With all this information available and some of it conflicting at that, no where can it be found that Miethe was captured. Did he come to the states due to Operation Paperclip? It doesn't matter for the crux of the matter in performing the due-diligence in regard to "Defying Gravity" is to establish the association with Von Luck and the subsequent rescue from the Gulag/workcamp/prisoner camp by Sarbacher and twigsnapper.

The conclusion is that it never happened. Whoever twigsnapper is, he gave the writer of "Defying Gravity" wrong information. The writer relied on his information, which was a nameless source, in anonymous emails as being the truth. None of this information can be cross checked and/or verified and amounts to nothing more than just "hear say". In writing a biography, a writer must be able to verify information provided by sources and those sources in this instance are anonymous and not coming forward which is indicative that it is nothing more than a hoax, a hoax perpetrated upon Paul Schatzkin.

Mikado

[Mikado14]

I have recently acquired a copy of Hans Von Luck's memoirs entitled "Panzer Commander" and I have found it to be very interesting. I have read pieces of it and so far, I am beginning to like the man. I would have so enjoyed meeting him.

The curious item I did notice that on page 354 in the "Name Index", all the names beginning with "S" are there. No where does the name "Sarbacher" appear.

In "Defying Gravity" there is an excerpt from "Panzer Commander":

….in 1934 with a friend I planned a three week trip to Italy. We adapted my
DKW car for sleeping, took as our main luggage enough cans of gasoline from
Germany to see us at least to Rome and back, and also packed as much food to be
as independent as possible."
In Florence we met a lady who invited us to her house for a meal. She led us to a
narrow alley and we stopped in front of a house with a shabby façade.
“Ecco, we’re there. Please come in.”
We felt a little uneasy. But we then came into the inner courtyard and the house
that from the outside looked so sad turned out to be a palazzo with many art
treasures and a dreamlike garden. It was the townhouse of a principessa. We spent
a wonderful day in lovely surroundings.

This passage appears on page 25 towards the bottom (Panzer Commander). We are led to believe, as presented in "Defying Gravity", that this "friend" was Sarbacher, however, the only proof that was afforded to the author was provided by an anonymous individual.

Now looking at the above excerpt directly from "Panzer Commander", Von Luck mentions that the trip "was planned". In the book "Defying Gravity" we are told by another anonymous source the following:

In 1934, Hans Von Luck and Robert Sarbacher met while both were touring Italy.
Hans von Luck was camping out of his DKW, outfitted with extra gas and food
for several weeks. He was enjoying the experience of being able to meet different
cultures.
Robert Sarbacher had joined him in his travels, helping with expenses; they sang
and drank and caroused as only young men can manage to do. Both were
intelligent and filled with the promise of what the world had to offer. And then
something happened which changed their lives forever.

The way this is written, one could be led to believe that the friend was Sarbacher but then again, it also could be interpreted as Von Luck "was camping out of his DKW"....alone ....but Von Luck does casually mention the friend he planned the trip with. However, Morgan does mention that Sarbacher and Von Luck did meet in Italy in what was referred to as "joined him in his travels". This would indicate that Sarbacher was not the one he planned the trip with since he met him in Italy.

One only needs to ask the question....why didn't Von Luck mention this in his book when he thought enough to detail the experience in Florence and why would he leave out that there were THREE individuals - Von Luck, the friend that planned the trip with him and then Sarbacher(according to Morgan)....

(to be continued)

[Mikado14]

Doing a bit of a side track here in regards to Hans Von Luck and his memory.

In his book on page 305 of "Panzer Commander", he speaks of an incident involving a truckdriver:

"Our German truckdriver, Fred Sbosny, with whom I once drove to Tiflis to buy things for our theater group, tried to maintain his Studebaker truck in good condition. As he told me, whenever a spare part was needed, he always received the same instructions from the Russian commandant, " You get from mine. Guards in vehicle park must not notice." This meant that he often had to go on a "scrounging trip" by night, at great risk and by bribing the guards."

Throughout his memoirs, Von Luck has many references to casual acquaintances that he met throughout his life, whether they be someone he met on the street in passing that had an impact on him or someone who was instrumental in his life.

Now ask yourself this question......If he was friends with Sarbacher and Sarbacher came to the camp to get this "German physicist" why wouldn't he have written about this encounter? He was quick to write about an encounter with an orderly from the 1st Battalion Grenadier Regiment 125 (page 313) but why not Sarbacher? After all, according to O'Riley in the book "Defying Gravity", they were BOTH elements to the Caroline group. If mentions a chance encounter with a soldier from a battle - "Operation Goodwood" - why not someone who he spent time with in a relaxed and enjoyable setting? Imagine running into someone while in a Russian work camp who you spent time with...wouldn't that have been something to write about?

Of course it would be.

Hans Von Lucks memoirs are riddled with many encounters but no mention of Sarbacher.

And when the end of the day comes, ask yourself....Why?

Mikado